What did CZ say during the 3 hours before the "1011 Great Cleanse"?

Original Podcast: CounterParty TV

Original translation: Odaily Planet Daily

Host: That's great! I really appreciate you coming. It feels like your activity on Twitter is at an all-time high recently, like you're firing on all cylinders.

CZ: Actually, I was more active earlier, especially during the years when I was fully operating Binance. But indeed, there has been a lot of information this week, so I've been posting a lot. I'm often flying around now and usually don't have as much time to post, but things have been quite concentrated these past few days.

Host: You just got out of prison not long ago and returned to Twitter, which can be said to be full throttle. You previously quoted that Forbes article about your net worth, and although you said the figures were exaggerated, objectively speaking, you are one of the most influential people in this industry. So at this stage, what are your goals? What is the driving force behind what you are doing now?

CZ: I have never been someone particularly driven by money. Binance grew too quickly, so quickly that I didn't go through the process of wealth accumulation that ordinary people experience, step by step making money and learning to enjoy wealth. In the first few years, we were always putting out fires, and then we were dealing with U.S. regulators; those years were very stressful.

I come from an ordinary background and have never been accustomed to a luxurious lifestyle, but I don't mind; a functional life is enough for me. As long as the clothes can be worn, and the chair can be sat on, I’m fine. I wear a Garmin sports watch, which costs $300, and that’s sufficient. I don’t buy luxury cars, watches, or yachts, and I don’t have that kind of wealth path of “earning ten million to buy a car, earning one hundred million to buy a house, earning two hundred million to buy a yacht.” I was pushed directly from “zero” to the cover of Forbes. But I didn’t suddenly have tens of billions of dollars in my wallet, nor did I cash out a lot, so my perception of wealth is different from what ordinary people imagine.

So, I don’t feel the need to “prove myself again,” nor am I obsessed with the label of “multiple entrepreneurial successes.” I have done enough with Binance; I haven’t let down investors or users in this matter. I owe it to the holders of BNB, our team members, and platform users.

I have taken on the responsibilities that I should bear, including those legally, and I have faced them head-on. The time I spent in prison actually allowed me to see many things more clearly. You will become very aware of two things: first, health is the most important; second, connections between people are the most important. I will miss food and a bed, but those come second.

Before I went to prison, I had already made it clear that I would no longer return to manage Binance exchange; I am just a shareholder. I asked myself: what will I do in the future, what can keep me excited? The answer I came up with is: to help others.

I believe that humans are biologically programmed to feel a strong sense of satisfaction from 'helping others' as long as they can survive themselves. I no longer need to worry about survival, so my question becomes: how can I maximize my help to others?

I no longer care about “reputation” as such, because it has already been hit by legal procedures once, and it is no longer absolutely pure to me. But I still care extremely about “credibility” — I have never harmed users, and that is the bottom line.

Power? I have already left the operational layer of the Binance trading system. Money? I can't spend it all, and I have no material pursuits. So what I care about now is—when I grow old and look back, did I do my best to help others, did I do something truly valuable.

Education is an answer—if we can build a globally open and scalable digital education platform, it would be a super leverage. After I got out of prison, I took a few months off and then returned, focusing my energy on the BNB Chain ecosystem and Binance Labs (now we are rebooting the brand to completely separate it from centralized exchanges) to help more entrepreneurs succeed.

You asked me if I have a sense of responsibility for “controlling the fate of the industry”? I don't have that grand narrative. I don't believe that any one person can be solely responsible for the entire industry. The crypto industry will have its ups and downs, and there will be winters, but each bottom will be higher than the last. I am not a leader; I am just a participant who is still contributing.

Host: I'm not trying to put the future of the entire industry on your shoulders, but I am indeed curious. Before diving into the specifics of Meme, Perp, and the technical ecosystem, I want to start with a more macro question. The current state of Crypto Twitter, especially among those deeply involved in on-chain trading culture, is a bit strange. On one hand, Bitcoin has just reached a new high, and even if it pulls back a few percentage points today, it should still be in a bull market. But when you open your timeline, the sentiment feels chaotic like a bear market. However, from a macro perspective, the industry has actually achieved historic breakthroughs. The Trump administration has openly embraced crypto, and BTC, SOL, ETH all have ETFs, while most traditional financial institutions around the world have started using stablecoins. Crypto has indeed penetrated the mainstream structure of the world. Logically, this should be a “moment of victory.” Yet in the on-chain world, especially in the retail-driven segment, there was a Meme frenzy, but now there isn’t that concentrated fervent consensus; people are asking - “What should we believe in next? Where is the North Star on-chain?” What do you think about this issue? What optimistic future do you envision for on-chain?

CZ: I understand the kind of “chaotic” state you are referring to, but I don't see it as a bad thing. On the contrary, it usually means the industry is growing.

In 2013 and 2014, we didn't even call this industry the “crypto industry”; back then, there was only Bitcoin, and we referred to it as the “Bitcoin industry.” In 2017, Ethereum emerged, and ERC-20 brought about the ICO wave, leading to a surge in projects and the first explosion of the industry. In 2021, DeFi and NFTs appeared; after the peak, the industry transitioned into a normalized state but did not disappear.

The fact that ETFs, Meme, stablecoins, RWA, and other elements you mentioned coexist in this round indicates that the dimensions of the industry are expanding, the ecosystem is becoming more layered, and different groups of people are starting to have different entry points of belief—this shows that the volume is large enough.

Indeed, this has also led to a more pronounced differentiation - the liberal camp of the old OGs, the institutional faction of traditional finance, the Meme players on new chains, the value-oriented Builders, and the Bitcoin Maxis, each group has its own linguistic system. This is inevitable; if Web 3 is a truly decentralized ecosystem, it should have conflicts, differences, competition, and also collaboration.

I am personally accustomed to chaos. I am not someone who pursues order; I prefer open environments, the unknown, and places with various different voices. Therefore, I believe that the current “sense of division” in the industry is actually a sign of maturity—indicating that we are no longer a single narrative, but have entered an ecosystem-level structure.

You ask what the North Star is? I think the North Star is no longer a specific asset or a singular narrative, but rather - more people continuously entering, a larger ecosystem accommodating multiple narratives, while still being built. This itself is direction.

Host: The current situation is quite counterintuitive; Bitcoin has just hit a new high, and yet it only dropped by 1%. The entire Twitter timeline seems to have collapsed, with everyone shouting, “It's over.” This might be the norm for the crypto world in 2025. Speaking of Bitcoin, you appeared on Ferox's podcast about five months ago (also a shoutout to him; that episode was well done), and you provided a range of price expectations for Bitcoin: $500,000 to $1,000,000. What do you think now? Do you still maintain that judgment?

CZ: I still think this is a reasonable range. But first, I want to emphasize that I will be very cautious about price predictions—nobody really knows where the price will go. All the people I’ve interacted with who truly understand the industry are not certain that the price will reach a specific point; predictions are just opinions, not definitive conclusions.

Historically, Bitcoin has a cycle every four years, with most peaks occurring between October and December after the halving. Considering the current market situation, Bitcoin is very close to its historical high. This 1% to 2% fluctuation is really considered “child's play” in the eyes of us old players who have experienced a 50% drop in one day and a 50% rise the next day; one could even say this is “stablecoin-like volatility.”

Therefore, whether it is Bitcoin or the entire cryptocurrency market, I still maintain a strong sense of optimism.

Host: I noticed a change. Previously, in 2024, you actually had a relatively reserved attitude towards Meme coins, and you mentioned on several occasions that you were not a supporter of Meme coins, which sparked quite a discussion at the time. But recently, you seem to be significantly more positive about Meme-related content, even showing a certain level of excitement. What has changed in between? Why does your attitude towards Meme coins appear to be different now?

CZ: I want to clarify that I am not “against Meme coins.” I have never been an opponent; I simply say that I am not that enthusiastic about it personally. I am not an issuer of Meme coins, that is a fact, just like I am not an NFT player.

I have never bought an NFT, and I have very few altcoins. Although I support projects in the entire industry, the only cryptocurrencies I actually hold are Bitcoin and BNB, basically just these. I haven't invested a lot in project tokens on other chains, but I support the development of these ecosystems. Binance's funding has also supported many different projects on various chains, and I personally maintain close communication with many chain developers.

The reason I don't buy art, don't buy NFTs, don't buy music, and don't collect those things is not because I oppose them, but because I am simply not that type of person. I am a technical, functional thinker; I prefer tools that I can use directly and do not pursue collectible attributes. I also don't wear luxury watches; I use electronic watches that can tell time and track motion. I play basketball, I run—I just live this kind of lifestyle. So it's not that I reject those things; it's just that I'm not part of that culture.

However, if users in the ecosystem like it, and if this thing has been verified effective and has a market on other chains, I would certainly be willing to support it. I receive messages from a dozen project founders every day; some are working on Launchpads, some on stablecoins, and some on new Meme platforms. I will look at the team, and if I feel the team is reliable, I will help.

So I have never been against memes; it's just that before, memes did not form a structural ecosystem on the BNB Chain, so I wouldn't intentionally participate. But now that users have arrived, and developers have come, we should welcome them, provide infrastructure, and support them in building on the chain.

Meme coins actually have a strong demand for the underlying infrastructure of the blockchain. They require extremely fast information feedback, high real-time performance, asynchronous execution, and quick on-chain processing, which poses challenges for the underlying system. When I see these demands, I push the team to upgrade the chain's performance so that this ecosystem can support such a high-frequency culture.

But until today, I still haven't bought any Meme with the “investment purpose” myself. I only tried to buy a little bit to understand this culture as part of the experience process, not to pursue tenfold or twentyfold returns. I'm not that kind of player.

Host: One particularly interesting phenomenon in this wave of Meme around BNB is the sudden emergence of a large number of “Chinese tickers”. The entire Western community is asking: what is going on here? What is your view on this phenomenon?

CZ: I think it's completely coincidental. The starting point is actually quite random. In February this year, I tried to buy a small Meme on-chain using CrossWallet for the first time. I found the interface very simple, and I understood private keys, but I ended up being attacked by MEV, the transaction failed, and I was laughed at by the community for a long time.

The amount I played with was very small, probably just fifty to one hundred dollars, I just wanted to experience the process. But whatever I did, everyone paid special attention. Later, they even started creating memes around my dog, my avatar, and anything I said. During that time, I had to be careful about what I posted because once I did, the community would immediately use it to make memes.

For a while, I didn't even dare to tweet because it was too easy to be meme'd. Later, I thought, forget it, let them go, anyway, the community can play however they want, and as a result, it instead created a certain atmosphere.

Especially recently, on the day of the Mid-Autumn Festival, I originally posted “Happy Mid-Autumn Festival” but later deleted it and reposted, changing it to “Happy Mid-Autumn Festival, send your Meme pictures.” The Mid-Autumn Festival is a Chinese holiday, so the content flooding the community is all Chinese memes, mooncakes, Chang'e, the moon, and various Chinese tickers were generated this way.

Names like “Zhao Chang'e” that feminize my name and play with the Chinese pronunciation can only be understood by Chinese users. However, this cultural collision has instead formed a unique style, invigorating the entire community, and many Solana users have consequently flocked to the BNB chain. Some Western players have even started learning Chinese just to understand these memes. None of this was planned; it just happened naturally.

Host: Thank you for your explanation. I will ask one last question related to Meme, and then we will move on to the topic of perp and more trading systems. My original question was—what different things does BNB need to do to surpass Solana in on-chain culture and trading narrative? However, while I was looking through tweets, I saw a point made by Frank DeGods, who mentioned that BNB might have a structural advantage that Solana does not have—a complete vertical stack: Meme launching on platforms like Fourmeme → if it performs well, it moves to Aster → if it performs even better, it might go to Binance Alpha → and finally, there’s even a chance to reach Binance spot. He said no other public chain can provide a path that connects on-chain native trading behavior all the way to the centralized exchange's high-traffic entry. Was this path intentionally designed? Do you think this is a unique advantage of the BNB ecosystem?

CZ: This was not intentionally designed at all. For the past six and a half to seven years, I have been busy with the operation of centralized exchanges, and I did not plan the rhythm of BNB Chain in advance; it has completely evolved naturally.

After I was released from prison, I decided not to spend my time on the specific operations of Binance anymore, but to focus my energy on the on-chain ecosystem and decentralized infrastructure. As the largest exchange in the world, Binance indeed naturally provides a traffic hub, but this does not mean it only serves the BNB ecosystem. Binance will still list tokens from various chains, including Solana's Meme.

Indeed, people in the BNB ecosystem tend to feel “closer to the exchange” because they hold BNB themselves and are more willing to interact with Binance's system. This is not an exclusive advantage, but it is indeed a form of community stickiness.

If you look at the counterexamples, such as Solana's Phantom wallet, it only supports Solana and does not support BNB. On our side, both TrustWallet and CrossWallet support multiple chains, allowing Solana users to enter the BNB ecosystem, while Phantom users cannot directly connect to BNB. This actually indicates that our ecosystem structure is more open.

So the “vertical stack” you mentioned is indeed a real advantage, but it is not a walled garden, nor is it a deliberately constructed political structure; rather, it is an organically formed positive feedback system.

Host: We have talked about Meme, now let's discuss another core narrative of this cycle - on-chain perpetual contracts, also known as perp DEX. I want to start with Aster. Why do you think perp DEX has suddenly become one of the main narratives in this cycle? How did Hyperliquid manage to surge to the forefront so quickly?

CZ: Actually, perp DEX is not a brand new concept. There were early projects like dYdX and others that did similar things. The advantage of Hyperliquid lies in its on-chain transaction recording, the use of a vault model, and their effective marketing, which has generated a lot of discussion. For instance, they had James Wynn post a billion-dollar order on-chain, which is a highly topical subject that can drive traffic and attention.

But I always believe that traders instinctively want trading privacy. On Wall Street, all seasoned traders do not wish for their orders to be exposed to the market in real-time, and they even prefer that others cannot reconstruct their strategies afterward. Once a strategy is deduced, it will be subject to targeted hedging and sniping. Therefore, based on my twenty years of experience in the trading industry, this kind of completely transparent on-chain orders actually violates the logic of professional trading, and I find it hard to fully agree with it.

In June this year, I tweeted that if someone could create a perp DEX with “hidden orders” or “privacy matching”, that would be a direction to explore. On that day, I received pitches from thirty projects, and the Aster team was the first to jump in and say they could implement this feature. There were also teams that claimed they could create a fully private matching engine, and we directly invested in several of them.

So I believe that with the current development speed, regardless of whether it is this round or not, at the latest in the next four-year cycle, the trading volume of on-chain perpetuals will approach or even catch up with centralized exchanges.

Host: So how big is the market space for perp DEX? What conditions need to be met to truly “flip” centralized exchanges, or even surpass them?

CZ: There are two paths happening simultaneously here. On one hand, when new users enter the cryptocurrency space, they will definitely start with centralized exchanges. They want to use email, passwords, and customer support, rather than directly dealing with private keys, MEV, and various address strings, so CEX is still the main entry point. Currently, over 90% of the global population has not entered the cryptocurrency space, and once they do, their first stop will definitely be Binance or other CEX.

But as users gradually understand the on-chain logic, learn to custody assets and manage private keys, they naturally begin to seek out earlier, higher-risk, and higher-leverage products, and will migrate to DEX. This is because DEX can offer things that CEX will not list, whether it's new tokens, memes, or early-stage immature assets.

So I believe that in the long run, in twenty, thirty, or even fifty years, everything will migrate to the blockchain. Traditional finance won’t disappear overnight; centralized exchanges will exist for a long time due to their banking channels and compliance structures. Both forms will coexist for a long time. But ultimately, decentralization will become the main battleground.

Host: So the user path is: enter CEX first, familiarize with the market, and then enter the on-chain deep waters. What conditions are needed for Aster to truly surpass Hyperliquid?

CZ: In fact, if you look at it now, sometimes Aster has already surpassed Hyperliquid in certain time periods. But I believe the two are not in exactly the same lane; they represent different types of use cases. For example, Hyperliquid is a fully public order book, suitable for users willing to disclose their trading activities. On the other hand, Aster leans towards introducing privacy orders and a more open native cross-chain deposit method, such as allowing native Solana assets to participate directly, and it accepts assets from more chains.

Many mistakenly believe it “belongs to the BNB Chain,” but in fact, it is very open. Both projects are quite new, having really been online for just over a year; Aster even evolved from ApolloX, which has a bit of history but is still in a very early stage. The first place is not necessarily always first; sometimes the second place can run faster because it can directly evolve its features.

Host: This is similar to the path of OpenSea, where being first does not necessarily mean being the last to win. So why doesn't Hyperliquid directly add a “dark pool order” feature? If they do, will it directly erase Aster's differentiated advantages?

CZ: They can certainly add it, and I even suggest they do. However, competition among exchanges has never been solely about individual features; features can be replicated. What truly differentiates them is long-term product philosophy, user protection mechanisms, responses to issues, and which Layer 1 you ultimately migrate to, as well as whether the public chain ecosystem will build a complete toolchain around you. These are the decisive factors, not just one or two unique features.

Host: So if we want to assess which perp DEX is stronger, what core indicators should we look at? Recently, DefiLlama stopped tracking Aster because it couldn't distinguish between real volume and incentivized volume, and some say the current trading volume is not trustworthy.

CZ: I won't make a judgment based on a single data point. The combination of trading volume and user count may form a framework, but it still doesn't fully explain the issue. Because when there are airdrop incentives, users will continuously place orders to mine the airdrop, which falls under “incentive-driven activity.” Do you consider it fake volume? They are indeed paying transaction fees and placing orders; it's just that the motivation is different.

In the era of centralized exchanges, we have also encountered the same problem: how to distinguish between real transactions and wash trading? If the platform charges fees, then as long as both parties pay the fees, from the exchange's perspective, it is considered a “real transaction.” However, if there are no fees, it is obviously a wash trade, which complicates matters.

So I think we should label the incentive status and let the market judge for itself—like “there are airdrop incentives in this phase,” which users can understand at a glance, without needing to completely eliminate the data. As for how users choose, they will ultimately go to the places with the deepest liquidity, lowest costs, and most stable execution; this will always be the core.

Host: So how do you think users can determine if a platform's liquidity is real? Is there a blunt but effective way to do this?

CZ: Actually, there is. When I was on Wall Street, we were very direct - we would take a sum of money, like $1000, and place an order of $500 on each of two platforms, to see how much could be executed, what the slippage was, and what the fees were. Then we would transfer the assets to the same wallet, allowing us to visually see the final difference in the number of tokens received. Even if users do not completely systematize this action, they will develop preferences after a few experiences, and in the future, they will make larger trades on the smoother platform. This is the most genuine market voting mechanism.

Host: If you are 23 years old now and just entering the market in 2025, which sector would you choose to play in? Is it on-chain, AI, infrastructure, or entrepreneurship?

CZ: I will give a possibly controversial suggestion - if you have a safe fallback, you should join a startup team earlier, rather than sitting in a stable position for a long time. The real opportunities are in startups, not in mature companies. But the premise is that you must be prepared for the worst, and if everything goes to zero, you can still survive.

So the key is not “Should I go all in?” but rather “Do you have a foundation that can withstand failure?” If you have a Plan B, then go for it. If you don't have a Plan B, then accumulate your abilities before taking the plunge. Opportunity windows do not wait for anyone.

Host: One narrative that I dislike the most in the crypto space is, “You only have a short window of a few years to go all in, or else you'll forever be a bottom-tier worker.” The famous tweet by GCR mentioned that after graduating college, a person has only a very short time to take a gamble; otherwise, they will never turn their life around. Many people end up selling on Solana in just 17 seconds due to this mentality, feeling they must gamble for a “one-shot glory.” What do you think about this time pressure? How long do young people actually have to “succeed”?

CZ: I am a counterexample. I founded Binance when I was nearly 40, and now I am 48. I spent almost twenty years doing various jobs, writing code, building systems, and later doing management. I had a good career, but entrepreneurship is not something completed in your twenties.

Many people think that entrepreneurs are all very young, but statistics show that the average age of most successful entrepreneurs is over 40. However, I also believe that if you want to start a business, you should try early; the earlier you try and make mistakes, the better. But don’t crash into the first wall—it's okay to fail, but you must have the ability to get back up.

I have seen many excellent founders, smart and strong in execution, but because they are too eager and hope to “succeed” too quickly, they end up losing control of their mindset. So don't be overly nervous, and don't let “time anxiety” ruin your judgment.

Host: Is there anything you would like to say to the community in closing? For example, what are you currently busy with, or what direction do you hope everyone will pay attention to?

CZ: I don't have much to add. I just want to say that the crypto industry is never a smooth road; it will definitely be accompanied by shocks, volatility, and controversy. But truly strong teams, communities, and developers will continue to build amid these upheavals.

I have personally gone through many extremely difficult times along the way, but I firmly believe that as long as we are doing the right thing, not scamming, not harming users, not exploiting loopholes, but continuously building, then whether it's a meme, a utility token, or on-chain securities, every path has value.

I am a builder. As long as we keep building, this industry will definitely get better. This week may be full of ups and downs, but from a longer perspective, these emotional fluctuations are just a small point in the curve, and we just need to keep moving forward.